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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 21, 2010 8:47pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

On "Scarlett Queen", I don't know if one could call pulling of it a "fan panic" or "legally safe" or something else.

It was a series that aired on Mutual and doesn't seem to be connected with any of the claims being made by RS.

This was a sustaining series that might have been owned by Mutual.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 9:33pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Yeah, that panicked fan would be me. That and a dozen other shows. Who needs a hassle, even if it's just a DMCA takedown in your email?

Old Time Radio doesn't pay my bills or feed my dog.


This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-08-22 04:33:21

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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 21, 2010 8:59pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

My goodness, absynthe ... Google Books, Google News and ProQuest are your friends. Using those tools, you can at least get information on the origins of a program and do some further digging into who the copyright owner might be. In some cases, you might find that the owner is likely a defunct ad agency, syndication company and/or sponsor.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 9:14pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

If the owner is a defunct agency or sponsor, that doesn't make the material public domain.

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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 21, 2010 9:44pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I'm not a lawyer or legal expert, but my own opinion is that this leaves the work in public domain by default. If the entity that created the work was dissolved, with no transfer of ownership of rights to another party in bankruptcy court, or if the owner left no heirs, then the work is abandoned - there's no one left to claim any rights.

It has to be considered in the context of the original intent of copyright and public domain - copyright protects owners of original works, while public domain protects the public in the dissemination of ideas. In the case of a copyrighted work where the author or owner no longer exists, there is no owner to protect; the public right to dissemination of ideas should take precedence.

This would be different from a work where the owner still exists and hasn't made any claims to the rights. They could still do so in the future. However, they'd might (and I stress _might_) have a weaker case if the work was distributed openly, they were aware of their copyright ownership, and they took no action to protect their rights.

Copyright law is sometimes a gray area, particularly when it comes to works where ownership is abandoned, transferred, or is ambiguous. With archive.org or other sites and outlets for material, it's a matter of assessing the risk of potential owners making claims and how actions of owners or possible owners might be taken into account in a court.



This post was modified by coolcatdaddy on 2010-08-22 04:44:53

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 10:49pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Given our non profit sharing of old time radio shows didn't give us love, wealth or happiness... this casual activity shouldn't leave us defending anything.


This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-08-22 05:49:36

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Poster: fedupwithgarbage Date: Sep 6, 2010 9:29am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Then by all means abisynthe I believe YOU should pull all of the OTR you've ever uploaded and never come here again. PLEASE, never come here again.

It's exactly this "tuck tail between legs and hide" philosophy that will eventually shut this whole web site down and all of this rare and historical media will be lost to everyone but a few wealthy collectors.

Thanks

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Sep 7, 2010 12:51am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Sometimes wishing isn't any better than pooping. A guy would wish that these titles would be public domain and freely available on the archive. Plop.


This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-09-07 07:51:07

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Poster: jeffzkrazie Date: Sep 7, 2010 5:57pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Pooping? really? dang!

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Nov 6, 2010 2:21am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

If you guys want the bottom line on this stuff. Sound recordings prior to 1972 have no federal legal protection and no statutory punitive damages.

That would lead you to common law copyrights, which you'd have to sue violators in a state court.

It is probably questionable that RS invoked DMCA takedowns for works that absolutely have no federal protection.

It would be expensive and a half for RS to actually sue anyone in 50 states. The result would probably be varied.

If this were federal law, trademark and personality rights cannot keep a work out of the public domain. We have the uncertainty of state courts with sound recordings prior to 1972.

Is any of this stuff public domain? No. It has been relegated to state courts to determine the copyright status of sound recordings before 1972 until 2047. I will be dead by then, but maybe I should have a time capsule on 60 year old media ;)

Could you get sued? Mostly this stuff was abandoned in the 70's. Amari probably bought the "rights" to this stuff for a 6 pack. I know Mediabay has used tape vendors to get the materials they use and then harassed the people the bought them from.

Are any sound recordings prior to 1972 public domain? NO.

Is it likely that a state court would award damages for materials that are commercially worthless? Again NO.

Would a corp just wash this in bankruptcy if it happened? Of course. Without federal punitive damages, a lawsuit would not be worth it.

I think RS should just concentrate on giving bookstore visitors high quality (it's been slipping) recordings and quit paying a pimply lawyer.

Some of the materials that remain unclaimed by Radio Spirits are Basil Rathbone Sherlock Holmes episodes which they do not claim, but offer extremely high quality recordings. I recommend them.

It is by offering a quality product, not suing, that is their business. I have RS CD's.

I will never, ever buy another one.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Nov 6, 2010 2:57am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I have pulled a LOT of OTR I uploaded, because who needs a hassle? You'd expect me to be Joan of Arc. You were mistaken.

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 21, 2010 10:51pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I suppose if you look at it like that, there's not a reason to be mad about it. I guess I look at it differently. I think their claims are almost certainly legally invalid. Beyond that, I think that Radio Spirit's actions are a threat to the survival part of our American culture, our heritage. If the only way that people can get Old Time Radio in the future is through paying for Radio Spirit's overpriced sets, much of this will be lost to future generations. It's lot easier to get into something free, than something that cost an absurd amount of money.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 22, 2010 1:13am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

The scope of copyright and it's impact on culture are irrelevant. Money is irrelevant.



This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-08-22 08:13:56

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Poster: Mr Filow Date: Aug 22, 2010 6:04pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone


I suggest you all make digital copies of your Radio Spirits Material (your legal backup copy) and then dump all of the Radio Spirits material back into the market [Ebay, Amazon, ...](and forget to delete your backup copy). Then suggest to the next guy he do the same thing. This will take all of the money off of the table for RS and reduce their catalog value to 0.

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Poster: drspark61 Date: Aug 22, 2010 9:31pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

The thing to do would be to put all the shows up on an offshore torrent site like The Pirate's Bay. The casual listener is unlikely to make the effort to obtain shows in this way, but at least the material would remain in circulation.

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 22, 2010 10:07pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

er-the material is available on dozens of other sites. I won't list them here, but plenty of places. If history's any guide, Radio Spirits isn't going to go after everyone who has some Sam Spade on their site or Burns and Allen, rather they'll file a few DMCA notices with Archive.org and with a few sites that care to act on it, but even the Shadow which they claimed before this is available on countless websites.

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Poster: RadioMan52 Date: Aug 25, 2010 2:04pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

You are correct that they are available at other sites unfortunately RS and others of the same ilk have sent letters and funds to the main search engine providers to basically blank out many of the “unofficial” sites that have not kowtowed to their demand letters and are still permitting downloads the only sites that you get on the main are his…...
It still is a puzzling mystery on how he can claim that he owns the rights to something that was in the public domain and freely available way before he even opened up the “Spirits” BS when he was in college, If I remember he even stated in a few of his radio programs that he was obtaining the material by FTP download from “Bulletin Boards” remember them?
So if you want to get some of the material it looks like we may have to resort to the “torrent” system as a get even BBS to Torrent, full circle as far as I can see

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 25, 2010 4:19pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Regarding Radio Spirits paying off the search engines. They're really not doing all that well. I did a search for "The Shadow Old Time Radio" on Google and there are two sites with nearly 60 episodes right near the top, with Radio Spirits in 10th place.

There are a lot of nasty things that go with Torrents. I think that's kind of a last resort for anything.